03 June 2010 @ 11:57 pm
In Which V Discourses on an Argument She Knows Little About  
So, I'm behind on my "classic feminism" literature. I'm just now reading Gloria Steinem. Not because I'm particularly interested, but because the mum handed me the book and I decided, why not.

So I started with "I Was a Playboy Bunny" and then moved to "Erotica vs. Pornography," because they interested me the most.

I can't pretend to know anything about sex or about porn or erotica. Well, the last one, because, hello, I'm in fandom. But I did not realize some women had such strong feelings against violent pornography. I get the revulsion; how could beating a woman ever get a man off? It's disgusting, barbaric, awful, etc. But she makes the case that, even in "role-reversal pornography," (and, just for clarity, pornography comes from the Greek words for the description of sex with a harlot/prostitute/female captive; but, personally, like a lot of words, I think it's moved on from it's origins. Cmon, we know how "bootylicious" in the dictionary; we don't take our words as seriously, in this day and age. As a writer, this is the source of my revulsion. But I digress), it's always about power and dominance over women. That, when a woman punishes a man and he finds pleasure in it, it's merely because she's defying her natural role as a woman and/or because he's taking the female role.

Bull. Shit.

A man who submits to pain--from my very, very limited knowledge of the BDSM lifestyle--is not taking on the female role. He's not getting off on being the woman. He's getting off on pain, domination, humiliation. It may not make sense to the general public, but if I've learned anything from fandom it's the, "don't yuck somebody else's yum" rule. (Courtesy of [info]sahiya ). Don't question someone else's kinks, because they might question yours. From what little I know about the process, it's not the issue of being a woman. It's an issue of submitting to someone else's control.

I understand her problem with men and violence in sex and how it's sometimes, often, taken as just a part of nature that he's going to be rough. But I do not see that it is one-sided. I know a couple women (girls, I should say; they're not hardened adults, but they know what they like and what they want) who love to take control, to bite, to torture, maybe with pleasure, but still.

Maybe it is the fandom thing again. You see a lot of ridiculousness (how the fuck is the SPN fandom so goddamn misogynistic? They're worse than Dean and his "on a good day you get to kill a whore," manwhore self.) but most of the fics I've read have been fairly gender equal, especially in sex. If the woman is a sub, it's her character. It's not a sin to enjoy the feel of someone else at the wheel. Just as it's not a sin to be that driver. If the woman is a dom, it's her character.

The world needs all kinds. Two doms just does not seem to work. The dynamic would be all wrong. And while fighting for control might get them hot and bothered, there has to be a winner and chances are, if you're really a dominant, being the loser will not be a happy ending. Same with two subs. Who's going to be the one to step up to the plate? It's the whole balance, yin-and-yang thing that I'm really into. I believe in balance. If that's gender balance or sexual balance (in terms of, balance in sex), it doesn't matter. It's still balance.

And, while I believe, for some reason, that losing your virginity is something to think about and not do with someone you don't love, I think she confuses sex and love. From what I've seen and heard, the two are not mutually exclusive, but nor are they terribly far from each other. Society sometimes confuses their ideas on how fused the two things are. Personally, I believe that sex is, as Bones might call it, a stress release, a release of endorphins and other scientific things that I know nothing about. But I do believe that, while in a relationship with one you love, it should be with that person. (Short version: I believe in sexual and romantic monogamy.) She seems to think that just because the sex presented is not "making love," with the candles and the music and the rose petals, it is dirtybadwrong. It is not to be seen and not to be toyed with.

And back to power. "Pornography is about dominance. Erotica is about mutuality." I agree. But I don't see anything inherently wrong with the first. It goes both ways, is what she is forgetting. While it may be a lot of women with big bouncy plastic beach balls strapped to their chest moaning about how big the 70s-hairy man is, not all of it is about humiliation and rape and torture and murder. In fact, at least one female I know is amused by porn she's watched, but also totally turned on. Does that make her a bad woman? Someone who enjoys another woman being used for sex?

Not in the slightest. It means it's doing what it's supposed to. The moans and the "oh, yeah, I'm hard"s got to her, somehow. It's titillating. It's sex. It's something we're programmed to want. The sounds, the sights, we can only fill in the feel of it and we're hardwired to react.

Short answer: I may find it somewhat distasteful and I may enjoy my erotica much more, but I see nothing inherently wrong with porn. Just a bunch of people (dare I even call them women? They might take offense to it. Isn't it "womyn?" Taking the "men" out of one half of the world entirely.) finding something else to bitch about in this "man's man's man's world."*

Then again, maybe porn has just come a very long way since 1976/1977. Maybe it's classied itself up for us modern gals.

*I actually really, really love that song. Was just listening to it this afternoon and I think it's completely, 100& true. But that won't stop me from using it in a derisive way.

ETA: OHMYWORD is Amanda Tapping pretty with dark hair. I may just have to start watching Sanctuary.
 
 
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GammaEridon: Understanding[info]gammaeridon on June 4th, 2010 11:59 am (UTC)
Not only is Amanda there with dark hair, she talks with an English accent that's kind of fun. You should so watch Sanctuary.

On to the main topic, I agree with you. People are too easily offended by stuff that doesn't affect them. Men being submissive is about control and humiliation, not that he wants to play a woman. If a man wants to play the role of a woman, he dresses like one and actually plays that role. I get frustrated and angry at people who judge something they clearly don't understand as some of the writers you're talking about.

And, while some pornography is violent, much is not. Frankly, even if it is, men and women are watching it and getting excited about it. And, what about those romance novels? My gf is reading a series now that has rape in it amongst the other, gentler, sex scenes. Men don't typically read these books. What does this say about these "womynists" when women are writing rape scenes (and fairly graphic ones, I might add) for other women?

This is a case of people sticking their noses into other people's business where they don't belong rather than tending to their own house. I think our world would be a lot better off if we focused on our own lives more and spent less energy telling others how to live theirs.
Jay[info]canadian_jay on June 4th, 2010 06:13 pm (UTC)
*sad face* And that ETA there. I like my Amanda Tapping with blonde hair (preferably short!) and no British accent. *sulks and wants more Sam*

Anyway! Basically, I agree with most of what you've said here, and what I disagree with is definitely just stuff that is very much personal perception.

But mostly:

It's an issue of submitting to someone else's control.

« This. Definitely. I've some serious kinks around powerplay and sub/dom (though no actual experience, tbh, xP), and that is so what it is about. It isn't about taking the 'female' role or the 'male' role, because submission & domination aren't sex/gender correlated. Culture tends to mix them together, but it ignores the fact that unless they're partner is a rapist or something, the one recieving (not necessarily submitting, recieving) has a buttload of control - at least, in non-BDSM sex.

The world needs all kinds. Two doms just does not seem to work. The dynamic would be all wrong. And while fighting for control might get them hot and bothered, there has to be a winner and chances are, if you're really a dominant, being the loser will not be a happy ending.

» This is where the glory of being a switch or 'topping a top' comes in. *g* Not denying what you say - I'm pretty damn certain there are people who wouldn't get off on being the sub, but I'm also kinda of the belief there are more than would admit, both doms & more vanilla sorts. I mean, come on, who wouldn't like being fucked senseless/until they beg and writhe and I think I'll stop here. *g* oops I think my kinks are showing

She seems to think that just because the sex presented is not "making love," with the candles and the music and the rose petals, it is dirtybadwrong. It is not to be seen and not to be toyed with.

» In your few lines to previous to that, I agree with you on the mixing of sex & love as the same thing, but my personal opinion on the sex/love divide/relationship is that sex is what you said it was - but its also an act of trust and can be an act of love (ideally/for me personally, certainly others would differ).

Anyway, had to say that, because I also have to say to the line I quoted: WTF? SRS? My main issues: 1) "making love" is really, really cheesy. Yeah, its romantic, and romance is now every now and then, but sex can very easily be quite fucking enjoyable/pleasurable without it. 2) With ya on the "don't yuck someone else's yum" thing, and it applies here.

Twigg[info]ohsillytwigg on June 6th, 2010 01:57 pm (UTC)
Very interesting points there. I always find it funny that it's always men watching porn in people's arguments, not women. In some ways that brings up more gender stereotypes. Men are defined as Neanderthals who are compelled to watch porn, while women are all pure and innocent. And trust, women watch porn, we're just less vocal about it.
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